Is Leaf and the Maple dead or dying?

LeafLabs Garden » Community » The Lounge

Is Leaf and the Maple dead or dying?

(158 posts) (25 voices)

Started 1 year ago by corguy
Latest reply from raymadigan

« Previous 1…8910 11 Next »

gbulmer
Moderator

lorenson - Please let me be clear, I don't want to mislead you. I have *not yet* got school children using STM32F4.

I have lead workshops for several hundred children and adults using Arduino. The new project areas which I want to 'crack' need a *lot more* computer power and more sophisticated peripherals than an Arduino (or an Arduino Due).

I think I need a development environment which is as easy to use as the Arduino, with an easy to use library, and an easy to use board, with some similarly excellent examples. Then I think 'newbies' can succeed :-)

Posted 1 year ago #
gbulmer
Moderator

olimexino - If the board has Ethernet, some of the projects I have in mind don't need Arduino compatible shields anyway.

The nanode http://nanode.eu/ is pretty exciting.

IMHO Ethernet and some form of SD memory covers a large category of projects.
I think adding a battery backed clock is it better.
Power-over-Ethernet even better.

I don't think I am describing a general purpose Arduino.

Posted 1 year ago #
siy
Member

@olimexino, I think that for such a powerful MCU's like F4 series presence of some kind of high speed interface on board is important, because typical area of application for these MCU's will be tasks which need such a power and most likely this is related to processing significant amount of data. Once these data processed, in most cases they need to be pulled from MCU to "big world". Without high speed interface this is just impossible. After some poking around for the prices of various components, I'm going to conclusion that Ethernet PHY + socket with built-in transformers will be cheaper that HS USB. For example, RTL8201 is close to $1.1-1.5 in retail depending on particular IC suffix (BL, CP, etc). The HanRun HR911105A is about $4 retail. This is only $5.5 in total in retail prices, wholesale prices will be much lower than that. If HS USB will add 6 euro to board price, then probably Ethernet is more reasonable choice.

Posted 1 year ago #
gbulmer
Moderator

siy - I agree with your analysis; most high-performance applications will need high-speed communication.

Some of the projects we discuss rank Ethernet higher than USB because USB typically needs an attached computer, whereas Ethernet allows the board to be a host on a network.

I don't think 6 euro at retail is equal to 6 euro in parts.
I don't know what olimexino's algorithm is, but a 'rule of thumb' is
"retail cost = 3 x part cost" (or more like 4x)

So $5.50 in parts might become $16.50 retail cost, or more.

Posted 1 year ago #
olimexino
Member

do you think the addon ethernet/usb host as bad idea?

not anybody will use ethernet but if we put on board everybody have to pay it
how many of arduino/maple projects now require ethernet shield? I guess less 10%

you are right it's not only simply math for the parts cost, but also board space, expensive high frequency oscillators (just look at STM32-P407 ethernet schematic), assembly time, testing time, all this affect production cost.

Posted 1 year ago #
siy
Member

@gbulmer, yes, I know that this is not just cost in parts. That's why I took retail prices as a base for calculation. Retail prices for relative cheap parts follow nearly the same rules and parts may cost 3-4 times less when purchased in quantities. Of course, my estimation is very rough, only guys at Olimex may make precise calculations taking into account all relevant details. I just think that it worth consider it as an option.

@olimexino, definitely, at present only small number of projects need Ethernet. But there are at least two reasons which may contribute to that: a) there is not enough data processed just because MCU's are relatively slow/have small amount of memory in existing arduino/maple boards (Maple Native, probably, is the only known exception), b) Ethernet is not on board and adding another shield is not always easy/possible/feasible. Since F4 MCU's notably different in regard of computing power and on-chip memory, adding Ethernet on board might make it much more popular. At present FS USB plays role of main interaction channel between board and PC, some time ago RS232 was dominating in this role. Times and needs are changing and more appropriate interfaces are selected. Ethernet has good chances to be next such main interface. Of course, my considerations are purely technical, while you also constrained by such things as target price and other marketing stuff. Differences in conditions easily may lead to different conclusions in regard to same things :)

Posted 1 year ago #
gbulmer
Moderator

Edit: I am going to try to start some of this discussion in http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1368
because I think we are discussing stuff where this thread title is not a good fit.
----------

olimexino -

do you think the addon ethernet/usb host as bad idea?

I don't think it is automatically a bad idea, but until I see how an ethernet or USB Host add-on board is fitted, I wouldn't like to give a definitive answer.

An ethernet daughterboard might get in the way of other daughterboards. In that case it was inferior to on-board ethernet.
It might be sensitive to noise, or generate enough noise that it isn't practical to use other daughterboards. In that case their is no benefit to having it on a daughterboard except a lower price to people who don't want it!

In general, I don't like high-speed interfaces (I am hoping Ethernet will be 100Mbits, or USB, 480Mbits) running through header pins without ground. If the board is Arduino header pins compatible, the Ethernet/USB Host board connecter isn't Arduino compatible, so the board should be outside on an Arduino daughterboard footprint. If it interferes with the Arduino footprint, preventing normal Arduino 'shields' being used, then there was little point making the board Arduino footprint compatible (I have no problem with that, if I can make daughterboards on a 0.1" pitch, but some folks may want an Arduino footprint).

So, if Ethernet/USB Host is outside the Arduino daughterboard footprint, there is the problem of making that connection robust. The simple solution is to make the MCU board so big that the daughterboard is within its footprint. In that case, it might be as well have routed the MCU board for Ethernet/USB Host, and have a reduced cost version without the parts fitted.

siy - sorry, I wasn't clear. I interpreted olimexno's cost as the retail price increase of $6 on the board, and your costs were based on part cost were about $5.50. I think quantity is hard to guess. I'd start by assuming 1000-off, where some of the parts are about 50% cheaper (e.g. at Farnell), but vary by quite a large margin.

I absolutely agree, it is well worth considering a high-speed interface. Several people have posted on this forum about projects which need a lot more throughput than Maple's USB. STM32F4 has a theoretical ADC bandwidth of 7.2M 12bit samples/second, which is way beyond full-speed USB.

Something 10x faster than an Arduino is a different machine for a potentially different market, and folks shouldn't extrapolate from Arduino. IMHO Ethernet might be a distinctly different market from USB.

(Edit: can we get this discussion off this thread? I think it is an inappropriate title)

Posted 1 year ago #
feurig
Member

Is it me or was the last time anyone from leaf labs was on here was months ago?

Posted 5 months ago #
gbulmer
Moderator

feurig - I think mbolivar responded to a post about 3 months ago, and poslathian (about spam) a bit more recently http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=308&page=16#post-20159

Well, they are paying the bills, so we might as well help each other for STM32 stuff ;-)

Worth pushing this to the top of the forum to attract their attention too :-)

Posted 5 months ago #
bnewbold
LeafLabs

It pains me to see you uncertain here after all this time. I can't speak officially for the leafers, and don't know their exact plans, but I think I can give some hints about their development progress (leafers, I beg forgiveness if you find this inapropriate).

To make ends meet and build up some resources, they are currently putting most of their energy into contract projects. As you probably know, when development costs, manufacturing loses, and distributor markups are accounted for it is not easy to break even developing devices like the Maple full time. LeafLabs *has* made it work, is doing pretty well now (not in danger of folding), and I think will dedicate more resources to developing and supporting the open hardware product line in the future.

There is a lot of reuse between contract projects and the maple tool set, so things are still being worked on, but not documented or polished for release. I don't know where new hardware stands, but progress has continued on porting and improving libmaple; perhaps root around mboliver's github repositories and branches? The existing devices will continue to be produced and sold.

At the minimum they owe all of you a clear public status update, perhaps this post will server as a poke. Even if this forum doesn't get much TLC they do usually reply to email, so you could give info@leaflabs.com a try if you have specific questions/comments/lamentations.

It's great to read all your thoughts on how to further improve the still-beleagured ARM MCU toolchain. The community as a whole is growing, and it is a great time to be building higher quality and more accessible developer tools in hardware. I have some ideas on this as well and will try to post them here in the coming months.

Posted 5 months ago #
gbulmer
Moderator

bnewbold - "It pains me to see you uncertain here after all this time."
Please don't suffer on my behalf. I fully understand that LeafLabs have to make a living.

If we (Moderators) could block spammers' accounts, I would be even more relaxed about LeafLabs' staff giving the forum TLC.

You might not have noticed, but the ARM tool chain has had various improvements.
There are pre-built toolchains for Linux and Windows at https://launchpad.net/gcc-arm-embedded.
The Arduino Due version of the Arduino IDE also includes an ARM toolchain.

Please don't misunderstand. It would be great to have LeafLabs more actively involved. I imagine some things would move faster.

Several forum members have developed and published STM32F1/4/3 boards which are, in some ways, improvements on Maple, for example siy's designs.
ala42 has done some outstanding work, that many have benefited from, including a simpler bootloader, and that may improve even further.
Some forum members are working on sub-$5 boards.
Some are using Olimex Maple clones, others STM32F-Discovery.
Some are using the ST-Micro CMSIS libraries (so broader coverage of STM32F peripherals).
So maybe moving in a broader range of directions than LeafLabs, and not 'dead in the water'.

Posted 5 months ago #
DaJMasta
Member

I'm stopping by after some months of not attending to my maple, but I'm curious about what's going on at LeafLabs. I am certainly fine with them working on other projects - having a job is a good thing and I can understand why making and supporting a microcontroller board on a small scale is challenging and expensive work, but the lack of communication is quite disturbing.

The latest official communications I can find is from August - that's 4 months ago. As someone who was looking forward to new libraries being ported over and who noticed significant IDE improvements over the last few revisions, I'm disappointed by the lack of any sort of update, but I'm really confounded at the complete lack of communication. The people on this forum seem like enthusiasts who are working with a product they want to succeed, so I don't see why we'd react that negatively to an announcement saying that development has been put on hold - or whatever has happened. I also know there's people here who are qualified to improve the IDE and port over libraries, so even if the Maple and its counterparts have come to an end, we'd still have the means/developer blessing to continue development on the platform.

I've just bought another maple for a larger scale project and to my surprise, my work with it over the summer has kept me entirely up to date with the official software. 0.0.12 doesn't exactly imply finished and if things aren't being worked on, the community should at least know that, so we can take the initiative to work out solutions on our own (in a more coordinated manner than we already are).

Posted 4 months ago #
crenn
Moderator

The last I had heard is that there was due to be another IDE release before the Wiring merge, however I haven't heard things for months and I haven't been active as of late due to things happening in life as well as (sort of) finishing off my university course. Over the next few weeks, I should be more active, although might not be as active if I manage to get work soon.

As for the Maple platform, I think it's really in need of an update in terms of hardware, or at least another IDE release to bring it upto scratch. But any sort of update/news would be good from the leaflabs team.

Posted 4 months ago #
corguy
Member

Hi guys, I started this thread almost a year ago and I thought I'd check in to see whats been happening. I was going to dust off my stm32 project and see what I could get working, but unfortunately based on what I see here I'd say we have an answer to the original question. I love the maple concept and STM32 in general but without the support and engagement of the Maple team this project is dead in the water.

I was really hoping that after almost a year things would be different by now. I wish all the success to the Leaf team on whatever they've gone on to but I think we can call a spade a spade at this point.

Best of luck to everyone in 2013!

Posted 4 months ago #
JoshSanders
Member

Bad news guys - SeeedStudio has "retired" both Maple and Maple Mini.

http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/leaf-maple-cortex-m3-p-670.html?cPath=190
http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/maple-mini-p-861.html?cPath=190

SeeedStudio was the "Featured Distributor" of LeafLabs, and if I'm not mistaken, the board house they were using to manufacture the later runs of Maple.

The other distributors seem pretty well stocked for now, but I'll add to the voices on this thread that we'd love to hear from the leaflabs folks soon about their outlook and the future availability of Maple.

Posted 3 months ago #

RSS feed for this topic

« Previous 1…8910 11 Next »

Reply »

You must log in to post.