LeafLabs Garden » Topic: Is Leaf and the Maple dead or dying?

LeafLabs Garden » Topic: Is Leaf and the Maple dead or dying? http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1303 A place to share, learn, and grow... en-US Fri, 22 Jan 2016 00:06:39 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 <![CDATA[Search]]> q http://forums.leaflabs.com/search.php raymadigan on "Is Leaf and the Maple dead or dying?" http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1303&page=11#post-23963 Thu, 28 Mar 2013 11:06:37 +0000 raymadigan 23963@http://forums.leaflabs.com/ Thanks for your response. It is not my intention to say here that there isn't anything going on, just that it is the very top of the technical spectrum. I don't like the arduino at all, I just use it as an example. I think what they have is way inferior to the Maple, they even are building an ARM board. The issue with the Leaf Labs is at this point, it is only the highly technical people solving highly technical issues for themselves. If there is a real issue someone has they have to be willing to solve the problem alone they move on. There is no middle technical community of people working with other people helping them get their problems addressed. I don't think it is anyone's problem here, there just doesn't seem to be enough to gather any momentum. For example, one of the things you mentioned in your post might help me, I thought of trying to do something like it myself. I have a problem with an SD Card board that when I build my application in a flat model, a bunch of IDE files with everything global my application works. If I build it with libraries, just classes really, then I get my problem. I think it has something to do with how it is put together. So, a new compiler would be potentially useful. I will spend the weekend building my application classes again from base classes to see if i can narrow down my issue. My issue is not why I am writing here though. Somehow there has to be more discussions for solving issues with people trying to build applications on this project, or there won't be people building application on this project. gbulmer on "Is Leaf and the Maple dead or dying?" http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1303&page=11#post-23959 Thu, 28 Mar 2013 09:18:19 +0000 gbulmer 23959@http://forums.leaflabs.com/ raymadigan - "If this is going to be a successful project, there has to be a way get to the bottom of issues using it." I agree. LeafLabs seem to be okay supporting the forum site. They have recently moved parts of the web site to new software software, so I think they plan to keep it alive. Several of us can sweep away spam, so it is maintained. Folks drop by often to try to help answer questions, and I think answers are high quality. However it isn't at anything like the scale of Arduino. While it is only a small part of the answer, I sometimes pop over to ST's STM32 forum to look for threads on peripherals. I hope that expands my knowledge base to help here. We are fortunate that ST produce STM32xxDiscovery boards at very low costs, sometimes under $10. These give us a low-cost way to try out the latest parts, and develop for new microcontrollers, or make new boards using them. An important feature of STM32 Discovery boards is the ST-LINK/V2 hardware "SWD" debugger which can be used to debug any STM32 by connecting 6 (5 really) wires. There are several open source gdb servers (I've used <a href="https://github.com/texane/stlink)" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/texane/stlink)</a>, which give 'proper' hardware debugging (single step, instruction breakpoint, data watchpoint, etc). So, from a hardware perspective, Maple is in a good place. ala42 has found that the the STM32F30xxx runs USB code with one change. ala42 has also developed a bootloader-less technique for using the newer STM32Fs which contain a manufactured-in USB bootloader. So based on ala42's approach, a new board 'just works' (TM:-). I hope the community can encourage folks to participate by creating boards which fit a variety of uses. For example, several people are making or working on more DIY friendly boards than Maple or Mape-mini, while being software compatible. Several folks have improved the IDE. For example by replacing the ageing version of gcc with a newer ARM sponsored version <a href="https://launchpad.net/gcc-arm-embedded" rel="nofollow">https://launchpad.net/gcc-arm-embedded</a> which includes new features including fixed point arithmetic. Some of this is quite technical, not integrated or not documented (maybe wiki pages gathering some of this stuff up might help?). However, I hope it shows that the community is alive, and actively progressing. siy on "Is Leaf and the Maple dead or dying?" http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1303&page=11#post-23957 Thu, 28 Mar 2013 05:39:15 +0000 siy 23957@http://forums.leaflabs.com/ @raymadigan, I think there is no need to worry. Project definitely continues although now it is more driven by community than Leaflabs. Having Leaflabs more involved would be great, but we have what we have. Year ago situation looked much worse. Now we have several different designs of Maple compatible boards, much better libmaple with support for new MCU families. And more things to come. Wish I had more time for my hobby :) raymadigan on "Is Leaf and the Maple dead or dying?" http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1303&page=11#post-23944 Wed, 27 Mar 2013 13:45:48 +0000 raymadigan 23944@http://forums.leaflabs.com/ Just another perspective, I started using arduino's several years ago. I build real time running applications that I use around my property. I got to where I would build my own arduino style boards because you can't put an arduino on a circuit board. Making a project that has to run outside all year long where you connect with the microprocessor by sticking wires in headers didn't make sense to me. The problem then becomes, how much code can you put on the Atmega328. It is so limited in memory that having more then one external device ran it out of memory before the application could be developed. Then I found the Maple Mini. It is an awesome chip, the problem is there isn't any wy to get any eyes to assist one at getting through their issues. If this is going to be a successful project, there has to be a way get to the bottom of issues using it. I think the platform is in a good spot. One can use these boards to build real application, that can do real things. I have one I am making the second pass at that has an LCD display, a set of switches to allow the user to adjust running parameters, and an SD card to log the state of the project when it is running so faults can be found and repaired. I could never build this application with an arduino and I am not sure what I will do if this project doesn't continue. siy on "Is Leaf and the Maple dead or dying?" http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1303&page=11#post-23468 Sun, 24 Mar 2013 02:40:51 +0000 siy 23468@http://forums.leaflabs.com/ By the way: I've compared USB library used in bootloader (I guess this is one of the old versions of USB device library provided by ST for STM32F103) with USB device library provided by ST for STM32F3. Beside type naming and some other minor differences libraries seems are identical. The difference should be in USB peripheral initialization. If I remember correctly, it was moved to other bus in F2/F4 and most likely in F3 too, but it is trivial change. The code for writing to flash in newer MCU's should already exist somewhere (IIRC ala42 mentioned that it has such code for F2/F4). Overall it looks like porting Maple bootloader to new families should not be very complicated task. siy on "Is Leaf and the Maple dead or dying?" http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1303&page=11#post-23465 Sun, 24 Mar 2013 02:22:32 +0000 siy 23465@http://forums.leaflabs.com/ > The basic approach is to use the existing manufactured-in STM32F4 bootloader instead of having to flash LeafLabs bootloader. I see. Idea is interesting, I need to dig deeper into docs for more details. gbulmer on "Is Leaf and the Maple dead or dying?" http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1303&page=11#post-23393 Sat, 23 Mar 2013 22:03:54 +0000 gbulmer 23393@http://forums.leaflabs.com/ siy - welcome back. I hope you're well. It's always great to see what you've been making :-) Let me look for the thread. I'm getting sleepy (3am here) so I'll do that much later today. The basic approach is to use the existing manufactured-in STM32F4 bootloader instead of having to flash LeafLabs bootloader. This should work with STM32F3 too. There is a 'thin shim' of code 'under' the USB library which detects the host PC trying to upload a program. The 'shim' jumps into the STM32's system-memory-resident bootloader. So, "ordinary" programs, which start at the beginning of flash can be loaded, without LeafLabs bootloader. They run as normal, but are capable of detecting the host upload, and loading over themselves. siy on "Is Leaf and the Maple dead or dying?" http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1303&page=11#post-23099 Sat, 23 Mar 2013 04:04:26 +0000 siy 23099@http://forums.leaflabs.com/ >I would like to change the 64LQFP to make a few things more convenient, but I don't have the >time to hack on the bootloader. Based on threads in the forum, ala42 has a better bootloader >approach than LeafLabs; a future project? I've tried to find thread with relevant discussion, but haven't found one. Can you, please, describe the approach or point me where I can read about approach in more details? siy on "Is Leaf and the Maple dead or dying?" http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1303&page=10#post-23096 Sat, 23 Mar 2013 03:58:05 +0000 siy 23096@http://forums.leaflabs.com/ gbulmer, I have some new designs (most of them single sided, as usual :) ). Going to commit them into repo once finish prototyping. By the way, one of them is 0.8" DIP48 breadboard-friendly design for LQFP64. P.S. sorry for long silence, had long business trip to US and then was busy finishing project at main job. these leaves no time for hobby :( gbulmer on "Is Leaf and the Maple dead or dying?" http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1303&page=10#post-23033 Fri, 22 Mar 2013 04:30:29 +0000 gbulmer 23033@http://forums.leaflabs.com/ feurig - I can change the thread title. However I was canvassing for opinions rather than unilaterally making the change. feurig on "Is Leaf and the Maple dead or dying?" http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1303&page=10#post-23023 Fri, 22 Mar 2013 00:41:28 +0000 feurig 23023@http://forums.leaflabs.com/ Usually you do that but ok how about this. <a href="http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=10410" rel="nofollow">http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=10410</a> gbulmer on "Is Leaf and the Maple dead or dying?" http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1303&page=10#post-23020 Thu, 21 Mar 2013 15:26:17 +0000 gbulmer 23020@http://forums.leaflabs.com/ feurig - "do we have schematics?" I have mostly complete schematics and barely draft-quality layouts (see comments below). Now is probably a good time to start to share them. AFAIK I can't just paste a pdf into pastebin or gist (which I could do now), so I'll try to load them up at the weekend. "I was looking at the dacs on the f3s ..." Yes, and the faster ADCs, and more analogue support than STM32F103 or STM32F4. IMHO STM32F3 is more interesting than the STM32F4 in some ways. ".. The max of 48k of sram makes it a little snug for the elua but I think it may be worth it." The 48k RAM isn't contiguous. I don't know about elua, but the extra 8KiB of "core coupled memory" might be hard to make use of. "It did occur that since the existing maple and mini both have significant design flaws and neither are moving forward can we do a group rehabilitation of each and submit them as pull requests" We could try to submit pull requests, however I think LeafLabs have their own direction. LeafLabs please correct me if I've misunderstood. However, I think we can do whatever we want!-) I had turned to other things when the STM32F-Discovery boards seemed a good way to go. They are great for low-cost software development and testing, IMHO amazing value . However they are quite big, and awkward to use in some projects (double row pin headers are not breadboard or veroboard friendly). I am not aiming for a Maple-clone (Arduino pin headers). Instead I like bread-board friendly, dual-in-line boards, so my LQFP64 is very different from Maple. It is a subset of Maple functionality (no LiPo charger), with some useful (to me) changes. The LQFP48 board is currently 'logically' pin-compatible with Maple Mini, but the board is wider because I'm using bigger components (for reasons outlined <a href="http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1303&page=10#post-22994">above</a>) so it isn't physically compatible. Hence I don't think my designs are close enough to LeafLabs designs to help. Open issues on mini-schematic which need decisions: 1. connect AV+ to Vcc (retain inductor-isolated AV- which is analogue ground). I've changed the 'digital-side' voltage regulator to support higher voltages (and power). If the board is running at, say, 9V, and the user draws significant current from AV+ then the MCP1700 will either shutdown or be damaged. There are several threads on the forum about 'smoking' the MCP1700. 2. Remove analogue MCP1700 voltage regulator. This would save space, and maybe allow the board to be 0.1" smaller pitch. It's currently 0.8" pitch. 3. Add 32KiHz crystal. This would be optional, so it'd be through hole. The LQFP64 schematic is stable except for issue 1, removing AV+. I am dithering on that. Both currently Maple bootloader compatible. I would like to change the 64LQFP to make a few things more convenient, but I don't have the time to hack on the bootloader. Based on threads in the forum, ala42 has a better bootloader approach than LeafLabs; a future project? (Edit: Please could we shift this to a more relevant and encouraging subject name?) mikep on "Is Leaf and the Maple dead or dying?" http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1303&page=10#post-23018 Thu, 21 Mar 2013 07:22:31 +0000 mikep 23018@http://forums.leaflabs.com/ Gbulmer can answer this in more detail, and there were quite a few threads in the past about redesign, such as this one: <a href="http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1390" rel="nofollow">http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1390</a> And at the time gbulmer had created a repo to hold all the design files: <a href="https://github.com/gbulmer" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/gbulmer</a> HTH, Mike feurig on "Is Leaf and the Maple dead or dying?" http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1303&page=10#post-22997 Wed, 20 Mar 2013 22:43:32 +0000 feurig 22997@http://forums.leaflabs.com/ It did occur that since the existing maple and mini both have significant design flaws and neither are moving forward can we do a group rehabilitation of each and submit them as pull requests feurig on "Is Leaf and the Maple dead or dying?" http://forums.leaflabs.com/topic.php?id=1303&page=10#post-22996 Wed, 20 Mar 2013 22:41:17 +0000 feurig 22996@http://forums.leaflabs.com/ I was looking at the dacs on the f3s and looking at a maple bacon / mini derivative. The max of 48k of sram makes it a little snug for the elua but I think it may be worth it. A couple of links to you and slys projects would be good reference.